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	<title>Comments on: Coming Up Short With WSF</title>
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		<title>By: jd2718</title>
		<link>http://www.edwize.org/coming-up-short-with-wsf/comment-page-1#comment-28203</link>
		<dc:creator>jd2718</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2007 05:05:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edwize.org/coming-up-short-with-wsf#comment-28203</guid>
		<description>Paul,

as they phase out large schools (which they are still doing, and which we should be doing more to hinder), experienced teachers are forced to look for placement, and these teachers have tended to stay with the schools they have worked in for a long time. Their difficulty finding placement is a real concern, and that&#039;s today, under Open Market, without their salaries being billed to the schools.

I understand that there are far fewer senior teachers than in the past, but some of those who are left will be looking for new placement, not out of choice, and this funding proposal encourages principals to discriminate against them, as if there weren&#039;t already a problem.

Jonathan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul,</p>
<p>as they phase out large schools (which they are still doing, and which we should be doing more to hinder), experienced teachers are forced to look for placement, and these teachers have tended to stay with the schools they have worked in for a long time. Their difficulty finding placement is a real concern, and that&#8217;s today, under Open Market, without their salaries being billed to the schools.</p>
<p>I understand that there are far fewer senior teachers than in the past, but some of those who are left will be looking for new placement, not out of choice, and this funding proposal encourages principals to discriminate against them, as if there weren&#8217;t already a problem.</p>
<p>Jonathan</p>
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		<title>By: paulrubin</title>
		<link>http://www.edwize.org/coming-up-short-with-wsf/comment-page-1#comment-28180</link>
		<dc:creator>paulrubin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2007 04:07:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edwize.org/coming-up-short-with-wsf#comment-28180</guid>
		<description>I wouldn&#039;t worry too much about this plan to make experienced teachers too much more expensive than rookies. There aren&#039;t enough experienced teachers left in the system. I look around and see everyone in their 20&#039;s and 30&#039;s with a few veterans who are focused primarily on getting the hell out while the gettin&#039; is good. I&#039;m one of the rarities, 25 years in the system but still 9 years from retirement in a best case scenario. There&#039;s literally nobody in my building in that boat. They either have way less years cause teaching is a second career or they&#039;re newbies, or they&#039;re on the verge of retirement and it really doesn&#039;t matter.

We all know that none of this is going to make a real statistical difference. It&#039;s change for change sake and we need to patiently ride out the remainder of the Bloomberg term and focus our efforts on developing a true pro-public education candidate that has a chance at winning election. The rest is nonsense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#8217;t worry too much about this plan to make experienced teachers too much more expensive than rookies. There aren&#8217;t enough experienced teachers left in the system. I look around and see everyone in their 20&#8242;s and 30&#8242;s with a few veterans who are focused primarily on getting the hell out while the gettin&#8217; is good. I&#8217;m one of the rarities, 25 years in the system but still 9 years from retirement in a best case scenario. There&#8217;s literally nobody in my building in that boat. They either have way less years cause teaching is a second career or they&#8217;re newbies, or they&#8217;re on the verge of retirement and it really doesn&#8217;t matter.</p>
<p>We all know that none of this is going to make a real statistical difference. It&#8217;s change for change sake and we need to patiently ride out the remainder of the Bloomberg term and focus our efforts on developing a true pro-public education candidate that has a chance at winning election. The rest is nonsense.</p>
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		<title>By: Jackie Bennett</title>
		<link>http://www.edwize.org/coming-up-short-with-wsf/comment-page-1#comment-28165</link>
		<dc:creator>Jackie Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2007 03:14:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edwize.org/coming-up-short-with-wsf#comment-28165</guid>
		<description>I received an email from Mr. Ouchi this afternoon (a very courteous one, I might add) which mentioned that he is not a paid consultant to Joel Klein, but rather is working pro-bono, and even picks up his own expenses. 

I apologized to him for that error, and I want to correct that here.  In the Times article he had added a disclosure saying he was an advisor to Klein, and I made an incorrect assumption based on that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I received an email from Mr. Ouchi this afternoon (a very courteous one, I might add) which mentioned that he is not a paid consultant to Joel Klein, but rather is working pro-bono, and even picks up his own expenses. </p>
<p>I apologized to him for that error, and I want to correct that here.  In the Times article he had added a disclosure saying he was an advisor to Klein, and I made an incorrect assumption based on that.</p>
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		<title>By: jd2718</title>
		<link>http://www.edwize.org/coming-up-short-with-wsf/comment-page-1#comment-28106</link>
		<dc:creator>jd2718</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2007 00:31:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edwize.org/coming-up-short-with-wsf#comment-28106</guid>
		<description>I am suspicious of every move that Bloomberg and his chancellor are proposing - we have no reason to trust their motivation, we have no reason to trust their commitment to public education, we have no reason to trust in their competence.

In particular, they propose that schools will be charged the actual cost of their teachers. 

Read that carefully. Schools will be given financial incentive to shun experienced teachers.

Under those circumstances, I feel no incentive to discuss the merits and demerits of WSF. We have more important business.

Jonathan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am suspicious of every move that Bloomberg and his chancellor are proposing &#8211; we have no reason to trust their motivation, we have no reason to trust their commitment to public education, we have no reason to trust in their competence.</p>
<p>In particular, they propose that schools will be charged the actual cost of their teachers. </p>
<p>Read that carefully. Schools will be given financial incentive to shun experienced teachers.</p>
<p>Under those circumstances, I feel no incentive to discuss the merits and demerits of WSF. We have more important business.</p>
<p>Jonathan</p>
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		<title>By: BernalKC</title>
		<link>http://www.edwize.org/coming-up-short-with-wsf/comment-page-1#comment-28013</link>
		<dc:creator>BernalKC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:11:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edwize.org/coming-up-short-with-wsf#comment-28013</guid>
		<description>The data from SFUSD is readily available to anyone with the slightest interest.  Since the adoption of WSF test-measured results have shown steady, substantial improvement.  There are many factors influencing this improvement besides WSF, but WSF has been an important agent of change.

The fact that you dismiss it because SF&#039;s WSF implementation uses averaged teacher salaries is interesting.  Is you main objection to WSF in NY because of the use of true salaries?  

Do you really believe that true cost accounting penalizes schools with experienced teachers?  That woould seem to indicate you think experienced teachers are overpayed.  The fact is that a principal would be a fool to stack his payroll with rookie teachers.  He/she would fail.  So he/she would be  careful to blend experience and youth and -- in all likelihood -- end up with pretty average salaries.

Here is SF the use of averaged salaries is an arrangement negotiated with the union.  It preserves the main value of WSF -- increased site autonomy and enhaced site-based decision making -- without intersecting with the thorny issues of pay scales and hiring rules.  And it works, even if you choose to ignore the ample evidence.

One more fact to chew on: if SF were to use actual salaries, the schools that would be most negatively impacted would be the thriving, successful schools that serve the less disadvantaged students.  The experienced teachers tend to gravitate to the schools that are doing well.  These schools simply could not afford to keep their staff intact if they had to pay the true costs.  We are searching for ways to alleviate this inequity here.  I don&#039;t really think moving WSF to true-cost salary budgeting is the answer.  But that hardly invalidates our experience with WSF.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The data from SFUSD is readily available to anyone with the slightest interest.  Since the adoption of WSF test-measured results have shown steady, substantial improvement.  There are many factors influencing this improvement besides WSF, but WSF has been an important agent of change.</p>
<p>The fact that you dismiss it because SF&#8217;s WSF implementation uses averaged teacher salaries is interesting.  Is you main objection to WSF in NY because of the use of true salaries?  </p>
<p>Do you really believe that true cost accounting penalizes schools with experienced teachers?  That woould seem to indicate you think experienced teachers are overpayed.  The fact is that a principal would be a fool to stack his payroll with rookie teachers.  He/she would fail.  So he/she would be  careful to blend experience and youth and &#8212; in all likelihood &#8212; end up with pretty average salaries.</p>
<p>Here is SF the use of averaged salaries is an arrangement negotiated with the union.  It preserves the main value of WSF &#8212; increased site autonomy and enhaced site-based decision making &#8212; without intersecting with the thorny issues of pay scales and hiring rules.  And it works, even if you choose to ignore the ample evidence.</p>
<p>One more fact to chew on: if SF were to use actual salaries, the schools that would be most negatively impacted would be the thriving, successful schools that serve the less disadvantaged students.  The experienced teachers tend to gravitate to the schools that are doing well.  These schools simply could not afford to keep their staff intact if they had to pay the true costs.  We are searching for ways to alleviate this inequity here.  I don&#8217;t really think moving WSF to true-cost salary budgeting is the answer.  But that hardly invalidates our experience with WSF.</p>
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		<title>By: institutional memory</title>
		<link>http://www.edwize.org/coming-up-short-with-wsf/comment-page-1#comment-27936</link>
		<dc:creator>institutional memory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:54:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://edwize.org/coming-up-short-with-wsf#comment-27936</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;THEY REPORT, YOU DECIDE (AAARGH!)&lt;/b&gt;
The following article appeared in  the New York &lt;i&gt;Post.&lt;/i&gt; March 13.  (I would surely prefer to cite the &lt;i&gt;Times&lt;/i&gt; or the &lt;i&gt;News,&lt;/i&gt; but neither of them saw fit to mention the event.  Score one rare point for the truthy &lt;i&gt;Post.&lt;/i&gt;)

&quot;City Comptroller William Thompson Jr. devoured Schools Chancellor Joel Klein at breakfast yesterday.

&quot;With the chancellor sitting just a few feet away, the fiscal watchdog ripped the Department of Education as &#039;a high-risk investment&#039; before dozens of public-school principals at a breakfast forum on fiscal accountability in education.

&quot;In a no-holds-barred evisceration of the department&#039;s business practices, Thompson portrayed the agency as one in the midst of a corporate back-room, free-for-all spending spree with none of the accountability to the public that it demands of its schools.

&quot;He accused the department of exploiting &#039;a gray area&#039; in state procurement law that allows it to strike no-bid contracts with impunity, and suggested the latest effort to restructure the school system will not yield significant gains.

&quot;&#039;The people of New York City have a right to expect better fiscal management from those who run our educational system,&#039; Thompson, considered a 2009 mayoral candidate, said at Fordham University&#039;s Graduate School of Education.

&quot;Klein shrugged off the verbal assault as &#039;all old news.&#039;

&quot;He also defended the restructuring, which is meant to give principals more authority over their budgets and curriculum, as a means toward pumping more money into classrooms.&quot;

***************************************

If the Chancellor has his way, his &quot;restructuring&quot; will, ultimately, have the effect of transforming the DOE into subsidiaries of Edison, McGraw-Hill, and Princeton Review.

Where do we sign up to get an advance copy of &lt;i&gt;that&lt;/i&gt; IPO?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>THEY REPORT, YOU DECIDE (AAARGH!)</b><br />
The following article appeared in  the New York <i>Post.</i> March 13.  (I would surely prefer to cite the <i>Times</i> or the <i>News,</i> but neither of them saw fit to mention the event.  Score one rare point for the truthy <i>Post.</i>)</p>
<p>&#8220;City Comptroller William Thompson Jr. devoured Schools Chancellor Joel Klein at breakfast yesterday.</p>
<p>&#8220;With the chancellor sitting just a few feet away, the fiscal watchdog ripped the Department of Education as &#8216;a high-risk investment&#8217; before dozens of public-school principals at a breakfast forum on fiscal accountability in education.</p>
<p>&#8220;In a no-holds-barred evisceration of the department&#8217;s business practices, Thompson portrayed the agency as one in the midst of a corporate back-room, free-for-all spending spree with none of the accountability to the public that it demands of its schools.</p>
<p>&#8220;He accused the department of exploiting &#8216;a gray area&#8217; in state procurement law that allows it to strike no-bid contracts with impunity, and suggested the latest effort to restructure the school system will not yield significant gains.</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8216;The people of New York City have a right to expect better fiscal management from those who run our educational system,&#8217; Thompson, considered a 2009 mayoral candidate, said at Fordham University&#8217;s Graduate School of Education.</p>
<p>&#8220;Klein shrugged off the verbal assault as &#8216;all old news.&#8217;</p>
<p>&#8220;He also defended the restructuring, which is meant to give principals more authority over their budgets and curriculum, as a means toward pumping more money into classrooms.&#8221;</p>
<p>***************************************</p>
<p>If the Chancellor has his way, his &#8220;restructuring&#8221; will, ultimately, have the effect of transforming the DOE into subsidiaries of Edison, McGraw-Hill, and Princeton Review.</p>
<p>Where do we sign up to get an advance copy of <i>that</i> IPO?</p>
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