Comments on: Sometimes Money IS the solution

By: Peter Goodman

Peter Goodman — Sat, 03 Sep 2005 12:43:46 +0000

Education increasingly looks to the business side for answers – and merit pay seems like a “quick” fix – it assumes that folks could be more effective if properly motivated – nonsense – the lesson from the business should be that “teams,” given substantial autonomy and clear goals are highly effective. School systems increasingly reflect old fashioned top down rigid management – a style that the business side rejected decades ago …almost half of all teachers leave within five years – I think the military has a better retention rate! The UFT, the NYC teacher union negotiated a Lead Teacher position whereby experienced teachers earn additional compensation to train new teachers – many unions are open to innovative compensation schedules. Unions, and their members object to management by edict and the failure to respect and listen to their employees.

By: EdWonk

EdWonk — Sat, 03 Sep 2005 09:35:48 +0000

I think that the solution must be long-term. In our culture, one's social status is largely determined by how much monetary compensation one earns. It's sad but true. If we want to attract the very best people to the classroom, we must raise the social status of classroom teachers. The place to start that process is by substantially increasing compensation. If we did so, there would be a great number of folks who would suddenly be very interested in choosing classroom teaching as a career. Then school districts could be very selective about who they employ. Like any other aspect of our economy, the law of supply and demand also applies to teachers. A "teacher shortage" is an example of when the law is not permitted to operate. Ordinarily, when there is a shortage of labor, wages increase. In the case of teachers, every time there is a shortage, the state floods the market with 1000s of "emergency credentialed" teachers, thereby easing the shortage and reducing (or eliminating) pressure to increase teacher pay. At the U.S. Dept. of Education's website, I asked Secretary of Education Margaret Spellings a question related to this and actually got an answer from her (sort of) on August 31st. See both question and answer on the Dept. of Education's website by clicking right here. (You may need to scroll down. Look for "Ed from Heber, CA") As one might expect, her answer touched on the subject of merit pay.

By: JennyD

JennyD — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:38:13 +0000

Hmmm. This is where I get confused. The school district spends $12,000 per pupil. Yet I’ve visited NYC schools that have no soap in the bathrooms. Forget air conditioning and such. We’re talking soap. Now how can the district spend $12,000 per kid and have no soap? It’s one reason I’m reluctant to spend more.

Second,Eumenides offered the only comments that said anything about teaching. Smaller classes, okay, how small? And how would teaching change when classes became that small? What would teachers do differently to leverage the small class size and make it advantageous? (BTW, most prof dev is garbage, I agree.)

I’ve spent the last two years reading and coding transcripts of language arts instruction in disadvantaged, urban elementary schools, in schools much like those in NYC. All the classrooms have behavior issues with kids, that’s a given. But what’s most remarkable is the wide range of instruction. Some of the teaching is brilliant and challenging. Some is a total time waste for students. Some has a goal, some is random.

I would spend lots more money to get rid of thos variances, and to get ever classroom observation to resemble the best that I’m looking at.

How can we do it?

By: divina

divina — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:55:59 +0000

As a lifelong NYer, I attended public schools. Let me tell you about the condition of the schools.

In the winter, many classrooms were under-heated or over-heated.

In the summer, there is no air-conditioning, no matter how warm it becomes.

Often, 1/2 of the classroom was cordoned off due to leaky ceilings, and loose plaster.

Due to overcrowding, in one school, our lunch period commenced at 10:30am. In another school, we had to split a 40 minute lunch period in half. I can recall many a time being asked to leave so the next group of kids could come in, despite the fact that I was still on line waiting for my lunch.

A broken window in the dead of winter rarely got repaired.

Toilet paper: bring your own. There was never toilet paper in the lavatories.

Text books were usually 7-12 years old and falling apart.

Is this the conditions we want to subject children to? And what adult wants to work in such an environment?

So money can do a lot in terms of repairing or constructing adequate facilities.

And fwiw, take a look at the CBO report. I think if you saw what a miniscule percent of our budget is spent on education, you would realize that your concern about our tax dollars is misplaced.

By: Joe_Thomas

Joe_Thomas — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 04:05:35 +0000

If salaries were equitable to the amount of work teachers do, the ‘good ones’ would stop leaving. We would then have greater competition for the jobs. The ‘bad’ ones would slowly disappear.

Money into salaries won’t solve everything, though. We also need to invest in the inner cities. Teachers and schools can only do so much. Society has a part to play, too. When we decide to do that we will start seeing the change we seemingly want.

By: eumenides

eumenides — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 03:57:30 +0000

Jenny:

Smaller classes, more individual instruction, real professional development, school safety agents, better maintanance and school construction.That’s what money can buy. Note the last is an especially big problenm in NY. With land values the highest in the nation, a four story school isn’t likely to be built where a 49 story high-rise office or residential building can go.

By: JennyD

JennyD — Thu, 01 Sep 2005 23:59:43 +0000

Joe, I’d pay teachers more in a heartbeat. But not all of them. I want comparable salaries and comparable work conditions. I want to reward the best and encourage them to stay. How can I do that?

By: Joe_Thomas

Joe_Thomas — Thu, 01 Sep 2005 23:52:17 +0000

Maybe we could start with salary increases. Until teachers are paid comparable salaries we will continue to lose some of our best and brightest to competing fields. We would have ‘highly qualified’ teachers in every classroom if the salary schedule matched society’s expectations of teachers.

By: JennyD

JennyD — Thu, 01 Sep 2005 21:10:58 +0000

Maisie, that’s terrific. Thanks.

I appreciate the source data.

I teach a stat-required course in teacher ed about foundations of education, including policy, history, philosophy, sociology. I try to link the work to practice and school functioning, so new teachers will better understand the work world.

I’m in Michigan, a state with a somewhat lower cost of living than NYC. We spend $8,000 per pupil, inclusive.

I know that Newark NJ spends $15,000 per pupil, and has for several years.

I guess my big question is, if you had more money, what would you spend it on? I mean, what’s the argument for the cost-benefit analysis that would make to me, Jenny taxpayer?

Also, why couldn’t you start by doing zero-based budgeting in schools and in administration? Rather than funding all the things that exist with more money, how about you build it from scratch and see what you end up with cost-wise?

Could the UFT argue for that kind of financial innovation?

By: Maisie

Maisie — Thu, 01 Sep 2005 16:18:13 +0000

JennyD–I’ll jump in for Mike Hirsch here because I have this info.
Expenditure per pupil in NYC is roughly $12,000 per year. That includes pension costs and debt service costs. Those are sometimes subtracted, and then you see the amount closer to $10,000. In surrounding wealthy districts such as a Scarsdale or Great Neck it can be more like $20,000, again including debt and pension costs.
Average class sizes in NYC are 22.2 in kindergarten, 23.5 in grades 1-6, and vary from 27 to 29 in middle and high schools depending on grade and subject. The contractual cap is 32 in elementary and 34 in high school. By contrast, the rest of the state averages are 19.2 in kindergarten, 20.8 in grades 1-6, and about 22 in middle and high schools
A good source of statistical data is the state’s “statistical profile of public school districts,” often called the “655″ report (http://www.emsc.nysed.gov/irts/655report/
It is voluminous, though the data tend to be a little old. A new 655 report for 2005 should be coming out soon, but I don’t see it on the web site yet. Hope this helps,
Maisie
PS–I often think about the schools bureaucracy and fear we’re throwing good money after bad. But in fact the NYC school system spends significantly less on administration and proportionally more on its classrooms than most other schools in the state. Partly that’s the result of efficiencies of size, but it’s also because we pay our teachers less and in general have fewer resources. Mike’s right, the question to ask is “Money for what?”